CSST (gastite or something similar) is definatly the easiest to work with and it can go just about anywhere except be buried underground. The yellow jacket protects it from damage. Have to be careful there is nothing sharp rubbing on it and be careful when installing it as to not puncture it, it can be fished into joist space, drop cealings, attics, etc. Pretty easily.
A few days ago I ran across an on Bob Vila's website. Naturally, I wanted to read their take on vent-free gas fireplaces (sometimes called ventless, unvented, or just plain stupid).
'Vent-free technology, once considered controversial, has now won wide acceptance,' wrote Merv Kaufman.Wrong! Wrong!If I can go online and find a lot of people saying otherwise, there's still controversy.
For example, in which they wrote, ' Ventless gas fireplaces should never be installed.' Yes, it says 'never.' A company called, which sells gas fireplaces, ' After doing research, we decided we would never put a vent-free (room vented) appliance into our home. Because of this decision, we didn't believe it would be right to sell them to our customers.'
A fellow who calls himself writes, ' Choose a vented space heater or gas fireplace, and prove to our future generations that we have indeed learned something from our cave dwelling ancestors.' His article in the Choose a Space Heater section, is titledSorry, Bob Vila, you're wrong. There is definitely still controversy surrounding vent-free gas fireplaces.
Now, I know you didn't write the article yourself, Bob, but still, if it's on your website, you're endorsing this nonsense.In a nutshell, the reason folks who understand building science oppose vent-free appliances is that:. Even when working perfectly, they put a lot of water vapor into the house.
(See my recent article on.). Drafts, fans, candles, and tight houses can mess up the combustion process. Many homeowners don't understand how to operate or maintain them.Yeah, they may have fancy technology built into them now (oxygen depletion sensors and catalytic converters), but the bottom line is that the risks can outweigh the benefits. It's not that hard to build a chase and cut a hole to install a direct vent model, so why take that risk?Still not sure? Read these who suffered the consequences of having a vent-free gas fireplace in their home.Come on now, Bob Vila. Prove that you're not just a has-been by helping to turn vent-free gas appliances into has-beens.
It's fine to endorse products, but you'll gain a lot more respect by coming out against products that have so many strikes against them.Addendum: I just got reminded of another quote from the gas fireplace article on BobVila.com: 'Since no actual combustion occurs in gas fireplaces.' It came up in the comments below but seems so outrageous that it needed to be up here in the main article. It's possible that this crazy statement is just a result of bad editing.
Sadly, it's also possible that whoever wrote it really doesn't understand basic science and should not be writing about gas fireplaces at all.Like this article? Subscribe to our blog!Related ArticlesPhoto by from flickr.com, used under a Creative Commons license. There you go again, poking at big names just to get more attention. You media whore, you. Actually, I am just jealous that I didn't pick up on this before you did. Good to call out Vila on these moronic devices.
To me the fall into the category of 'don't kill your clients.' I was once called in to do a few hours of consulting on a very high end new house right before they started insulation. It had 5 Isokern masonry fireplaces, including 2 ventless ones. I suggested that they consider getting rid of them, but I don't believe they did as I was not called back about the project. Hope they all survived. One dirty little secret is that ASHRAE Standard 62.2 does not talk about these products because the industry was willing to block the standard rather than to have them banned.
I know I was on the standard setting committee.Here is what they had added to the scope:'2.3 This standard does not address unvented combustionspace heaters.' One problem with them is the assumption that an oxygen depletion sensor will save you from CO. CO is generated at the exact point of combustion, generally it is not due to room oxygen being depleted.Check this out. John P.: It is indeed unfortunate that ASHRAE 62.2, the residential ventilation standard, doesn't address ventless gas appliances. The instruction manuals that come with the appliances reference other codes when discussing ventilation. One that I looked up today has a warning that reads:If the area in which the heater may be operated does not meet the required volume for indoor combustion air, combustion and ventilation air shall be provided by one of the methods described in the National Fuel Gas Code, ANSI Z223.1/NFPA 54, the International Fuel Gas Code or applicable local codes.Good point about the sensors!Here's a direct link to the article you referenced. Bruce L.: Great question!
I've added that to my list of topics to cover here. One answer would be mini-spit heat pumps for a more permanent installation. For portable heat, an electric strip heater would probably be the best option, though there are efficiency and safety issues with it. Unvented space heaters are a no-go.The best answer is to improve the building envelope and have properly installed equipment that's inside the envelope. We're going to do that to our condo soon and install a, which will be much safer and more efficient than what we have now. In the end, that'll result in much less energy use than dragging space heaters around the condo - an we'll be less likely to burn the place down. Bruce wrote: what is the best type of 'spot' or room only heating?I use a combination of an 80-watt floor mat at my desk and one of those oil-filled heaters that look like a radiator.
I keep my house at 66 during the day while the wife is at work. The oil provides thermal mass, making it more efficient (and effective) than a heater with a fan.For super-efficient homes with a mini-split heat pump (e.g., no auxiliary heat), I recommend the homeowner keep a couple of portable 'radiator' type space heaters on hand for unusually cold days, and I typically specify electric floor heat for the baths (or a toe-kick heater). The Bob Vila website has become a content play to attract traffic from search engines and feed those visitors ads on the side. Probably hired a shwack of writers and gave them all a big list of topics to write about. The site editor may have more of an SEO (search engine optimization) background than a construction contractor background.A trusted brand like Vila's and the fact that many other large media sites link to it, and now this post does too, means the site and those hundreds of home product articles rank well in Google for a wide range of search phrases. Like many content farms- pumping out mass volumes of keyword rich content that attracts eyeballs is more important than content with truly reliable facts.As well, pagenate those long articles so they span over 3, 4 or 5 pages to increase the number of page views and get those ads seen a few more times. I have a VENTED gas fireplace.There is no flue damper, and is therefore 'open to the outside' all the time.Unless it is actually running (burning gas), it is the coldest spot in the room, and doubtless raises my heating bill.I'm not saying this to endorse ventless fireplaces.
I wouldn't have one of those either.There used to be (maybe still is) AUTOMATIC flue dampers that figured out when there was a fire, and opened automatically, and then closed automatically when the fire was completely out. I never felt comfortable trusting it to open and close automatically.Give me a fireplace with a flue damper that I can open when I'm using it and close when I'm not.Ira. You need at least one dissenting voice on this site. Here goes: I am looking into buying an unvented gas heater for backup heat in my Vermont home. Two years ago we switched to wood as our primary heat and have used our vented gas heater as little as possible since.
This saved us literally probably a little short of $10,000 over two winters. My wife wants a backup though.Noting the objections to ventless heaters I have found on two or three websites, I am not very impressed. Water- Mold? I run two humidifiers in the winter to put water back INTO the dry winter air. If I don't, my throat is sore all winter and my guitars and violins dry out and sometimes crack.
Bring on that humidity, we need it! Carbon monoxide?
Detectors are available for $20 up. We have two nice expensive ones. I do run the kitchen oven some mornings while waiting for the wood stove to reach a useful heat. In this way I bring the house temp up by 5 or 6 degrees. First this is a great site.This is the first article I've read here and I do intend to check it out more, and perhaps click a few ads.Anyway, I found this article after researching a bill handed to my senior-citizen (only chronologically) parents after already having busted the installer of their new ducted nat. Gas insert for trying to charge them $200 for a completely unnecessary chimney sweeping.
It was already swept and not used since. Guy claimed it was caked with creosote.Anyway, they went with ducted because the chimney was already there, but also because the place from which they bought the insert (best rep, longest in biz here) doesn't sell the ductless and seems to have made it a practice to warn everyone passing through their door about them.Ian: I understand your sentiment, but I don't think this is a 'first world problem.'
Breathing minute amounts of particulate matter might not affect many people negatively, if at all, no matter how long they are exposed. Others, it might take a decade or whatever. Some react very fast. Children are of particular concern.Indeed, such interior pollution is a major health concern in both developed and developing countries.As for psoriasis being a first-world problem? I dare you to tell me me that to my face, because my reaction might just affect yours. You obviously are an ignorant arse to make statements about medical conditions of which you know nothing.
I bet you don't believe in vaccinations either. OK, read the links and also read reviews on Amazon by people who bought unvented gas heaters and fireplaces and CO guages and detectors (yes there is a science of detecting and Measuring CO)and I think the people knocking gas stoves, gas burners, and other unvented gas fireplaces and heaters must be shills for the electric company and/or vented fireplace manufacturers and installers. I've spent 66 years living in houses and apartments where the gas stove burners and ovens ran for extended hours every day. No CO poisoning symptoms yet. Just spent 6 days without electric due to Sandy and the Nor'easter and ran simmering pots of water on the 4 burners of my gas range as the only source of heat. Presently looking into some sort of ventless gas source of emergency heat for when the next one hits. ANd I'll buy one of those fancy CO and CO2 measuring devices to be safe.
Thanks for an interesting topic. HiI have been using a ventless gas stove for over 12 years now and have never had any issues with the unit or health problems.
At high heat it produces 33000 BTU which is more than enough to heat my 1700 square foot home most of the time. I also have it tied to a thermostat so that it cycles on and off depending on demand.I do have several CO detectors, some as close as 5 feet from the stove and not once have they ever gone off.The unit heats my whole story and a half home and moisture buildup has not been an issue.Maybe it is because my home is 90 years old, has adequate air leakage due to plank sheathing etc.The unit burns very clean. In fact I repainted the bright white ceiling after 10 years of use and I had a hard time telling where I was painting and what had been in place for 15 years. The only way I could tell was by the sheen of the paint.If you have a very tight home, then the moisture and other issues may be a problem. But if an HRV is installed this should not be an issue either.Besides the cats love to sleep in front of it on cold days and I do not have to mess with firewood, pellets etc.Just my humble opinion.Rich. Bob: Carbon monoxide poisoning happens at much lower levels than you may be aware of and sadly, the standard CO alarms you buy at the big box stores offer little to no real protection.
If you're interested in learning more, see my article,.Rich: Ah, now there's an interesting term: 'adequate air leakage.' Air leakage isn't the same thing as ventilation. Regarding ventless fireplaces, if you want to take the risk with your family, go right ahead. The law doesn't prevent people from doing all stupid things. We have a vermont castings vent free (Radiance) gas stove which i placed in the family room fireplace (5' feet tall, 6 feet wide). Burns a blue flame, and radiates a lot of heat. We kept the flue open for the first 30 or so hours of use, no odors what-so-ever.
We have whole house humidifiers on the 3 gas furnaces in this 7500 sqft house and run additional humidifiers in the master BR at night. I consider this aspect a myth. Anyone with a gas stove/heate in Orlando with problems.
As for 'soot', daaum, look at the flame silly. I'm reminded of the radon BS where the folks who measure also remediate. When i told these idiots that if you are on well water, venting your basement will not help the huge exposure in the shower, I think they went home and took a bath.
I actually read somewhere on the web in one of these vent-free scare sites about the gas stove sucking in radon and releasing 'nuclear radicals'. I bet vent free stoves cause nut alergies in kids too.Nonsense.It's cold here in PA today, and our VC stove is burning clean, blue and hot. Much nicer and cleaner than the big-arse wood stove we took out.We have gas, CO and smoke sensors throughout the house wired directly to the FD.Use common sense.